Chullin 85

Hook

Welcome to the study of Talmud—the beating, conversational heart of Jewish life. For someone standing at the threshold of the Jewish covenant, exploring the possibility of gerut (conversion), opening a page of the Talmud can feel both exhilarating and deeply intimidating. You might wonder: How do these ancient, hyper-technical debates about animal slaughter, Temple sacrifices, and legal uncertainties speak to my modern soul? Why does the path to becoming Jewish wind through such gritty, highly specific legal landscapes?

The answer lies in the very nature of the covenant you are exploring. Judaism is not a faith of abstract, disembodied creeds; it is a covenant of action, where the physical world is the primary canvas for spiritual holiness. Every physical deed—what we eat, how we handle life and death, how we navigate moments of doubt—is elevated into an encounter with the Divine.

In this study of Chullin 85a, we encounter a text that wrestles with some of the most profound realities you will face on your journey: uncertainty (safek), the status of our physical actions, and the transition from a state of potential to a state of binding obligation.

As a discerning seeker, you are currently navigating your own "in-between" space. You are learning the rhythms of a Jewish life, yet you are not yet legally bound by the mitzvot (commandments). This text offers a stunning, multi-layered mirror for your experience. It shows us that Jewish tradition does not fear uncertainty; instead, it builds a magnificent, rigorous home for it. By exploring how the Sages treat doubtful statuses and seemingly "imperfect" actions, you will gain a deeper, more candid understanding of what it means to commit your life to the Jewish people and the Torah.

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Context

To fully appreciate the discussion on Chullin 85a, it is helpful to understand where this text sits within the larger architecture of Jewish law and how it intersects with the practical journey of conversion:

• The Sanctity of Eating and Tractate Chullin: Tractate Chullin (literally meaning "ordinary" or "non-sacred" matters) deals primarily with the laws of kosher slaughter (shechitah) and dietary restrictions. In Jewish thought, eating is not a mere biological necessity; it is a potential act of worship. The tractate teaches us how to elevate the act of consuming meat by ensuring that animal life is taken with the utmost compassion, precision, and conscious awareness.
• The Mitzvah of Covering the Blood (Kisuy HaDam): The Torah commands in Leviticus 17:13 that when a person hunts or slaughters a wild animal (chayah) or a bird (of), they must pour out its blood and cover it with earth. This mitzvah does not apply to domesticated animals (behemah), like cows or sheep. The act of covering the blood is a physical expression of reverence for the life-force (which the Torah identifies as the blood). Our page of Talmud focuses on how we perform this mitzvah when there is a doubt about the animal's identity or when the slaughter itself was halakhically flawed.
• The Beit Din, the Mikveh, and Halakhic Precision: Just as the Sages in our text insist on precise definitions of what constitutes a valid act of slaughter or a recognized status, the process of conversion itself is governed by precise, objective halakhic standards. When you eventually stand before a Beit Din (a rabbinical court of three judges) and immerse in the mikveh (ritual bath), you are not merely performing a symbolic ritual; you are undergoing an objective status change. The meticulousness we see in the Talmud's debates is the very same meticulousness that ensures your conversion is universally recognized and deeply rooted in the chain of Jewish tradition.

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Text Snapshot

The following is a curated selection from Chullin 85a which we will unpack in our close reading. It highlights the Talmud's discussion of uncertainty (safek) regarding the tumtum (an individual of indeterminate gender) and the koy (an animal of indeterminate category), followed by the debate between Rabbi Meir and the Rabbis regarding "ineffective" slaughter.

Rather, it must be that the uncertainty in the case of the sounding of the shofar concerns whether a particular individual is a man or a woman, e.g., a tumtum, whose sexual organs are indeterminate. Although a woman is not obligated in the mitzva of sounding the shofar, a tumtum is in fact obligated, despite the uncertainty of sex. It is therefore possible to derive from the sounding of the shofar that if one slaughters a koy, an animal whose status as a domesticated or undomesticated animal is uncertain, on a Festival, one covers its blood...

MISHNA: In the case of one who slaughters an undomesticated animal or a bird and it is discovered to be an animal with a wound that would have caused it to die within twelve months [tereifa]... even though it is prohibited to eat any of these animals or birds, Rabbi Meir deems one obligated to cover their blood, and the Rabbis deem one exempt from doing so because, in their opinion, slaughter that is not fit to render the meat permitted for consumption is not considered an act of slaughter.

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Close Reading

Let us dive deeply into these passages, guided by the classical commentators, to extract the profound insights they offer for someone navigating the path of conversion.

Insight 1: Navigating the Space of Uncertainty (Safek)

The first part of our text grapples with a fascinating legal comparison between a tumtum (a person whose sex is anatomically indeterminate) and a koy (an animal that has characteristics of both a domesticated beast, a behemah, and a wild beast, a chayah).

The Gemara is trying to determine whether one is permitted to cover the blood of a koy when it is slaughtered on a Festival (Yom Tov). Normally, digging earth and covering blood involves labor that is prohibited on a Festival unless it is a certain, mandatory mitzvah. If the koy is actually a domesticated animal, there is no mitzvah to cover its blood, and doing so on a Festival would constitute an unnecessary and therefore prohibited labor. If it is a wild animal, covering its blood is a mandatory mitzvah that overrides the Festival restrictions.

To resolve this, the Talmud looks for a precedent where a duty born out of absolute uncertainty is powerful enough to override a Festival prohibition. It finds this precedent in the sounding of the Shofar on Rosh Hashanah for a tumtum.

Let us look at how the commentators explain this dynamic:

Rashi on Chullin 85a:1:1

אלא ספק איש - ודוחה יום טוב גמור Rather, a doubtful man—and it [the shofar blowing] overrides a complete Festival.

Rashi makes a crucial point here. Because the tumtum might be a man, and men are fully obligated in the positive, time-bound mitzvah of Shofar, the tumtum is halakhically obligated to blow the shofar out of doubt (safek). This obligation is so real and robust that it overrides the rabbinic prohibitions of the Festival day.

Steinsaltz on Chullin 85a:1

אלא צריך אתה לומר שמדובר בספק איש ספק אשה, כגון טומטום, וביום טוב ודאי. שלמרות שאשה פטורה מתקיעת שופר, טומטום שהוא ספק איש ספק אישה — חייב בתקיעת שופר. ומכאן יש ללמוד שגם כוי, שהוא ספק בהמה ספק חיה — טעון כיסוי ביום טוב. Rather, you must say that we are dealing with a doubt of whether it is a man or a woman, such as a tumtum, and on a Festival that is certain. For although a woman is exempt from the sounding of the shofar, a tumtum who is a doubtful man or a doubtful woman is obligated in the sounding of the shofar. And from here it can be derived that a koy, which is a doubtful domesticated animal or a doubtful wild animal, also requires the covering of its blood on a Festival.

Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz unpacks the mechanics of this legal reasoning. What we see here is a beautiful, revolutionary concept in Jewish law: doubt does not lead to paralysis. In the secular world, if we are uncertain about a status, we often suspend action or assume the obligation does not exist. But in the covenantal world of Torah, a state of safek (uncertainty) is met with an embrace of sacred responsibility. The tumtum is not cast aside or told, "Since we don't know what you are, you are exempt." No! The tumtum is given the horn, called to the community, and commanded to blow the shofar. The koy is not abandoned; its blood is covered with a blessing, honoring the possibility of its wild, sacred nature.

The Metaphor for your Gerut Journey

As someone exploring conversion, you are in a profound, beautiful state of spiritual safek. You are in the transition zone. You are learning to keep Shabbat, exploring the laws of kashrut, and training your tongue to speak Hebrew blessings. Yet, you are not yet legally Jewish.

Sometimes, a voice of doubt might whisper in your ear: “Who are you to do this? You aren't Jewish yet. If you keep this Shabbat or say this blessing, is it even real? Are you just acting out a part?”

This Talmudic passage is your answer. In Jewish thought, the "in-between" space is a space of holy potential, not empty vacuum. Just as the tumtum blows the shofar and the koy's blood is covered, your actions during this period of discernment are deeply meaningful. You are training your soul for the covenant. You are acting out of a sacred "perhaps"—the beautiful possibility that your soul was indeed present at Mount Sinai. Do not let the uncertainty of your current status paralyze your growth. Embrace the practices, learn the laws, and know that every step you take in sincerity is a step toward clarity.

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Insight 2: Sincerity, Efficacy, and the Definition of Action (Shechitah She'eina Re'uyah)

The second major discussion in our text revolves around a classic debate between Rabbi Meir and the Sages (represented in the Gemara by Rabbi Shimon) regarding "ineffective slaughter" (shechitah she'eina re'uyah).

Imagine a person slaughters a wild animal or a bird according to all the meticulous laws of shechitah. However, afterward, it is discovered that the animal had a terminal internal defect (a tereifa) that makes it completely unkosher and forbidden to be eaten.

• Rabbi Meir holds that even though the meat can never be eaten, the physical act of slaughter was still a valid act of shechitah. Therefore, the person is still fully obligated to perform the mitzvah of covering the blood.
• The Sages hold that because the slaughter did not result in kosher meat that is fit for consumption, the act of slaughter is legally null and void. It is as if no shechitah took place at all, and therefore, there is no obligation to cover the blood.

To understand the depth of this debate, let us analyze the commentaries.

Steinsaltz on Chullin 85a:10

ושואלים: מאי טעמא של ר' מאיר באותו ואת בנו? אמר ר' יהושע בן לוי: גמר למד בגזירה שווה שחיטה שחיטה משחוטי חוץ... And they ask: What is the reason of Rabbi Meir regarding "it and its offspring" [the prohibition against slaughtering a mother animal and its young on the same day]? Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi said: He derives it through a verbal analogy of "slaughter" and "slaughter" from sacrificial offerings slaughtered outside [the Temple]...

Steinsaltz on Chullin 85a:11

מה התם, בשחיטת חוץ — שחיטה שאינה ראויה לאכילה שמה שחיטה, שמתחייב על השחיטה, למרות שהקדשים שנשחטו נאסרו בהנאה, אף הכא נמי [כאן גם כן], לענין אותו ואת בנו — שחיטה שאינה ראויה שמה שחיטה להתחייב עליה. Just as there, regarding slaughter outside the Temple—a slaughter that is not fit for consumption is still called "slaughter," since one is liable for performing the slaughter despite the fact that the sacrificial animals slaughtered outside are forbidden for any benefit; so too here, with regard to "it and its offspring," an unfit slaughter is still called "slaughter" to make one liable for it.

Rabbeinu Gershom on Chullin 85a:4

מה התם שחיטה שאינה ראויה שמה שחיטה. כלומר שחוטי חוץ שחיטה שאינה ראויה היא וקרי ליה שחיטה Just as there, a slaughter that is not fit is called "slaughter." That is to say, slaughter outside the Temple is an unfit slaughter, yet the Merciful One calls it "slaughter."

Rabbi Meir and Rabbeinu Gershom are pointing to a profound concept: the intrinsic value of an action. When you perform an act of slaughter, the physical action itself has an objective reality. Even if the outcome is broken—even if the animal cannot be eaten—the Torah still recognizes the physical act as shechitah. The effort, the intent, and the physical execution are not erased by the imperfect result.

Now, let us look at the opposing view of Rabbi Shimon and the Sages:

Rashi on Chullin 85a:12:1

מה להלן שחיטה ראויה - כדכתיב (בראשית מג) כי אתי יאכלו Just as there it is a fit slaughter—as it is written (Genesis 43): "for the men shall dine with me at noon."

Rabbi Shimon derives his view from Joseph's instruction to his servants in Egypt: "Slaughter and prepare; for the men shall dine with me." For Rabbi Shimon, an act of slaughter is only defined as such if it leads to a meal—if it is fit for consumption. If the outcome is not kosher, the physical act is rendered meaningless in the eyes of the law.

To deepen this discussion, we must turn to a brilliant analysis by the Dor Revi'i (Rabbi Moshe Shmuel Glasner, the great-grandson of the Chatam Sofer), who lived in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Dor Revi'i on Chullin 85a:2:1-2 (Excerpts and Translation)

עוד שם גמר׳ מ״ט דר״מ באוא״ב וכו׳. הנה אי לאו דרבי היה מזכה שטרי לבי תרי לפסוק באוא״ב כר״מ ובכסה״ד כר״ש... Furthermore, in the Gemara: What is the reason of Rabbi Meir regarding "it and its offspring"? Behold, if not for the fact that Rabbi [Yehuda HaNasi, the editor of the Mishnah] "validated documents for two different parties"—ruling in accordance with Rabbi Meir in one place [regarding the prohibition of slaughtering a mother and its young] and in accordance with Rabbi Shimon in another [regarding the obligation to cover the blood]—we would not have sought separate, localized derivations for each of their disputes. Instead, we would have sought a general, overarching philosophical reason...

מה שנראה לפע״ד ברור הוא... דר״מ ור״ש לשיטתייהו אזלו... What appears clear to me, in my humble opinion, is that Rabbi Meir and Rabbi Shimon are consistent with their own deep systematic views...

The Dor Revi'i explains that Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, in editing the Mishnah, made a highly unusual decision. He ruled like Rabbi Meir in one case (that an unfit slaughter is still called "slaughter" for the prohibition of it and its offspring) and like Rabbi Shimon in another (that an unfit slaughter does not require the covering of blood).

Why this apparent contradiction?

The Dor Revi'i explains that there is a fundamental tension in Jewish law between the physical act and the functional outcome.

• When it comes to the prohibition of "it and its offspring," we focus on the act of destruction. Even if the animal is a tereifa, you have still committed an act of slaughter upon a mother and its child on the same day. The physical act of taking life is what the Torah prohibits.
• But when it comes to the positive mitzvah of "covering the blood," we focus on the holiness of eating. The blood is covered to elevate and permit the act of consumption. If the animal cannot be eaten, the spiritual framework of the meal is gone, and thus the mitzvah to cover the blood does not apply.

The Metaphor for your Gerut Journey

This tension between the act and the outcome is the exact tension of the conversion process.

Right now, as you prepare for conversion, you are performing many Jewish actions. You are praying, keeping parts of Shabbat, and eating kosher. Yet, because you have not yet immersed in the mikveh, these actions do not have the legal "outcome" of fulfilling commandments as a fully obligated Jew.

Sometimes, you might feel like Rabbi Shimon's definition of "unfit slaughter": “If my actions don't have the legal status of a mitzvah yet, do they even matter? Is it all just practice? Is it an empty performance?”

But the Halakha—by validating Rabbi Meir's view in the Mishnah—teaches us that the act itself has intrinsic, objective reality. Your prayers, your tears, your study, and your striving are not "unfit" or meaningless. They are real. The Divine registers your physical and spiritual efforts. The Dor Revi'i shows us that the physical act of reaching toward God has its own independent sanctity, even before the formal covenantal status is achieved.

At the same time, we do not remain in a state of eternal preparation. Just as the Halakha ultimately requires a valid, fit slaughter for the food to be eaten, the conversion process must culminate in the formal, halakhic transition of the Beit Din and Mikveh. The preparation is holy, but the goal is the binding commitment of the covenant.

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Lived Rhythm

A text about the technicalities of slaughter and blood might seem distant from your daily life, but its spiritual core is highly practical. The mitzvah of kisuy hadam (covering the blood) is about conscious awareness. It teaches us that we must never take life—or the physical world—for granted. When we eat, we must acknowledge the spark of life that has been given to sustain us.

As a concrete next step in your journey of discernment, you can bring this consciousness into your own kitchen. This is a powerful, daily way to move from theory to lived Jewish rhythm.

Your Action Plan: Elevating the Act of Eating

For the next two weeks, commit to a practice of mindful, kosher-oriented eating. You do not need to kosher your entire kitchen overnight (which is a complex process to be done with rabbinic guidance), but you can begin to implement the following steps:

1. Seek the Seal (The Hechsher): When grocery shopping, start actively looking for kosher certification symbols (like the Ⓤ, Ⓚ, or Star-K) on packaged foods. This practice trains your eyes to look for the stamp of sanctity on the mundane items of the world. It is the modern equivalent of ensuring our food has undergone proper, supervised shechitah.

2. Separate Meat and Dairy: If you haven't already, begin the practice of not mixing meat and milk in the same meal Exodus 23:19. If you eat a meat dish, wait a designated period (usually 3 to 6 hours, depending on Jewish custom) before eating dairy. This physical boundary creates a constant, conscious awareness of what you are putting into your body.

3. The Blessing of Awareness: Before you eat any food, pause. Do not just consume it. Say a berakhah (blessing). If you are eating fruit, say:

   Barukh atah Adonai, Eloheinu Melekh ha-olam, borei peri ha-etz. "Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the universe, Who creates the fruit of the tree."

   By pausing to bless, you are doing the spiritual work of kisuy hadam—you are covering the raw, animalistic act of eating with the dust of holiness and gratitude.

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Community

The Talmud is not a monologue; it is a multi-generational, loud, passionate conversation. On our page alone, we hear the voices of Rabbi Yosei, Rabbi Shimon, Ravina, Rabbi Elazar HaKappar, Rabbi Ḥiyya, Rabbi Yoḥanan, Rabbi Meir, Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi, Rav Pappa, and Abaye. They argue, they disagree, they respect one another, and they seek truth together.

You cannot convert to Judaism through a book or a screen. Judaism is a communal covenant. The ger (convert) does not just adopt a set of beliefs; they marry a family.

Your Connection Step: Join the Conversation

Your next step is to step out of solitary study and enter the "Beit Midrash" (the house of study) of the Jewish community.

• Find a Sponsoring Rabbi: If you have not yet connected with a rabbi, this is your most critical task. Look for a local rabbi whose community aligns with the halakhic standards you wish to adopt. Reach out to them. Be candid. Tell them: "I am exploring conversion. I am studying Talmud. I want to learn how to live a Jewish life."
• Do not expect immediate, easy acceptance. Historically, rabbis are instructed to gently discourage potential converts to test their sincerity. This is not rejection; it is an invitation to prove your devotion. If a rabbi is busy or hesitant, do not be disheartened. Be persistent, show your sincerity, and demonstrate that you are willing to do the hard work of learning.
• Find a Study Partner (Chevruta): Ask your local rabbi or look online for a conversion class or a Torah study group. Find a partner to read texts with. Just as Rav Pappa questioned Abaye in our text, you need a partner to question you, challenge you, and help you grow.

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Takeaway

The journey of conversion is a magnificent, demanding ascent. It is a path that asks you to bring your entire physical life—your kitchen, your relationships, your daily schedule, and your very identity—under the canopy of God’s covenant.

Chullin 85a reminds us that:

• Uncertainty is a holy space. If you feel like a koy or a tumtum right now—caught between two worlds—know that the Torah has a place for you. Your striving, your learning, and your imperfect steps are recognized and valued by the Creator.
• Your actions have objective reality. Every Shabbat you try to keep, every kosher food you choose, and every blessing you stumble through is not a dress rehearsal. Like Rabbi Meir's view of shechitah, your sincere actions have intrinsic spiritual weight, even before they are formally bound by the mikveh.
• Precision and sincerity go hand-in-hand. The rigorous legal debates of the Sages are not cold intellectualism; they are love letters to the Divine, ensuring that every physical act is performed with the utmost care.

Be patient with yourself. The road is long, and it is meant to be. The Beit Din and the Mikveh await you at the end of this path, but the holy work of becoming a Jew is happening right now, in the beautiful, uncertain, sincere steps you take every single day.